But the facts, and references (I'm feeling a bit like Tatu from Loveboat here_
10/28/01 5:04 AM

The facts, the references?   They seemed to be missing in your response to me.   I did like the the myrmidoms (mind if I steal it for when I speak publicly on CAH treatment?) 

Here's mine from dictionary.com:

o·pin·ion (-pnyn)
n.
  1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).
  2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
  3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
  4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
  5. Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.


[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin opni, opnin-, from opnr, to think.]

Synonyms: opinion, view, sentiment, feeling, belief, conviction, persuasion
These nouns signify something a person believes or accepts as being sound or true. Opinion is applicable to a judgment based on grounds insufficient to rule out the possibility of dispute: “A little group of willful men, representing no opinion but their own, have rendered the great Government of the United States helpless and contemptible” (Woodrow Wilson). View stresses individuality of outlook: “My view is... that freedom of speech means that you shall not do something to people either for the views they have or the views they express” (Hugo L. Black). Sentiment and especially feeling stress the role of emotion as a determinant: “If men are to be precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences... reason is of no use to us” (George Washington). “There needs protection... against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling” (John Stuart Mill). A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: “Our belief in any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful critical attempts to refute it” (Karl Popper). Conviction is belief that excludes doubt: “the editor's own conviction of what, whether interesting or only important, is in the public interest” (Walter Lippmann). Persuasion applies to a confidently held opinion: “He had a strong persuasion that Likeman was wrong” (H.G. Wells).

fact (fkt)
n.

  1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
    1. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
    2. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
    3. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
  2. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
  3. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.


Idiom:
in (point of) fact

In reality or in truth; actually.


 


[Latin factum, deed, from neuter past participle of facere, to do. See dh- in Indo-European Roots.]

Usage Note: Fact has a long history of usage in the sense “allegation of fact,” as in “This tract was distributed to thousands of American teachers, but the facts and the reasoning are wrong” (Albert Shanker). This practice has led to the introduction of the phrases true facts and real facts, as in The true facts of the case may never be known. These usages may occasion qualms among critics who insist that facts can only be true, but the usages are often useful for emphasis.

ref·er·ence (rfr-ns, rfrns)
n.

  1. An act of referring: filed away the article for future reference.
    1. Significance in a specified context: Her speeches have special reference to environmental policy.
    2. Meaning or denotation.
  2. The state of being related or referred: with reference to; in reference to.
  3. A mention of an occurrence or situation: made frequent references to her promotion.
    1. A note in a publication referring the reader to another passage or source.
    2. The passage or source so referred to.
    3. A work frequently used as a source.
    4. A mark or footnote used to direct a reader elsewhere for additional information.
  4. Law.
    1. Submission of a case to a referee.
    2. Legal actions conducted before or by a referee.
    1. A person who is in a position to recommend another or to vouch for his or her fitness, as for a job.
    2. A statement about a person's qualifications, character, and dependability.


tr.v. ref·er·enced, ref·er·enc·ing, ref·er·ences

  1. To supply references to: “Our memories are addressed and referenced... by significant fragments of their own content” (Frederick Turner).
  2. To mention in a reference; refer to: He referenced her book in his speech. See Usage Note at allude.

 

in·ter·sex·u·al (ntr-sksh-l)
adj.

  1. Existing or occurring between the sexes: intersexual competition.
  2. Biology. Having both male and female characteristics, including in varying degrees reproductive organs, secondary sexual characteristics, and sexual behavior, as a result of an abnormality of the sex chromosomes or a hormonal imbalance during embryogenesis.


n.

An intersexual person.
 

Fair is fair.  I have offered my proof with references and facts of it's usage within the medical community. You only came back with a neat word (but a good one, I'll give you that) but the rest was that fancy writing of yours, without substantiation. 

I could sit here forever and work on trying to convince you the world was actually flat, but without submitting proof to counteract your facts (a globe for instance, or maybe your experiences of circumnavigating) would you expect anyone to really believe me?  And would you be satisfied with my simple exhortations of it's truthfulness without me submitting the facts? 

Nawwww....I don't think so, because I know you are smart (you agree with the surgery issue afterall ;-) and you are well read and educated)  I can see that from reading your posts on other issues.  The acupressure post was brilliant; I do the same for headaches in that soft spot between my thumb and forefinger (with apologies to Pebbles on this).  But on that one, you gave facts, references, and even diagrams.  Do the same on this one. 

Remember a short time ago when I mentioned about learning in journalism school to independently verify everything, even if it was your mom telling you that she loved me?  (LOL...I did it when she visited recently,  with a sister) This is no different.  Convince me Danny Carlton, that intersex is flat out wrong.  I am sooooo willing to listen to reason, because I am not keen on that term myself.  I just need another one to take it's place, and I am willing to listen to your facts and references if you would only provide them.  Saying it's hurtful or insulting is only opinion.  I, and others will embrace the facts if they are given.  Problem is,  no one has given us those facts and references.

And in rebuttal to your argument:

1.  I'll partially give you that one.  But why is it that all those myrmidons keeps following the leaders in unison?  Is it because they can't think for themselves?  Or is it they can't think of something new to use?

2.  What about us previously classified as psuedo-herms?  I have to admit I am having trouble with this one because I am not quite sure I understand your argument on this one.  Over-normalize?  Huh? You mention trying to over-normalize what it means.  What does it mean in Danny Carlton's world?  In my world, it means undifferentiated genitals, but not  genetic confusion over the sex.  It also includes, in addition to CAH, many other genetic anomolies.  Most types of CAH in girls dealt with on this board are what they are:  presenting with differentiated genitalia, due to a genetic issue.  Pro-choice is a good term to use however, because in a way we are very pro-choice:  pro-choice in the issue of genital mutilation.  We simply want the girls affected by this to be able to choose for themselves whether to have this surgery done (again, I commend you for your feelings on this issue), but disagree with you on throwing abortion into the mix.  Can we stick to the subject?  I could further pursue your argument on it but it would bring up all sorts of nastiness I suspect.  I am pro-choice, but I am not in favor of women having to use hangers to about a pregnancy.

3.   None of us against genital mutalition are trying to introduce any other genders.  You are girl or you are boy.  One may start as a girl, and then transition to boy to reclaim what was taken away as a child, but they still fall into one or the other.  In our world, there are not classifications such as ferm, merm, or whatever.  A baby is a girl or boy,  or at least  without medical interference.  No one is trying to mess with gender, Danny.  No one is saying you can't call your intersex child he or she.  In fact, it's quite the opposite, we encourage parents to go with the gender they are most comfortable with without surgical intervention with the understanding that it may change at the request of the child later on. 

Danny, tag...your it. Give us the citations and avoid the emotional issues involved.  Emotion can rarely, if ever, supercede facts.

Betsy
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